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The vegans got ruined. To summarize and hopefully provide some clarity to anyone who needs it: Value judgments of better and worse are epistemologically prior to the beliefs we hold.
We don't merely think in terms of true and false, we also generally presuppose that the true is BETTER than the false (value judgment). AY and VG entered this debate on the mistaken assumption that all the participants were bound to a "value-free" logic. Jay repeatedly points out that whenever Isaac says "given the assumption of logic...," he (Isaac) is unwittingly committed to the value judgement that "assuming logic" is BETTER than "rejecting logic," and thus that we SHOULD assume that we're bound by the laws of logic. Jay wasn't "reframing" or "straw-manning" Isaac's statements so much as drawing out this necessary entailment. The vegans in this debate consistently failed to grasp this, and they still haven't. There's the whole debate in a nutshell, and Ask Yourself and Vegan Gains got utterly BTFO. I was vegan before this debate but now I'm suffering from keto flu.
Also, that "should" does not strictly apply to good and bad but also to form, function, acquisition and legitimacy of these three things and goals themselves. They are kind of stand in for "good and bad" but keep Ethics from being strictly a philosophical war between good and evil. I got the impression that if there was so such "harm vs. gain/not-harm" that "should" did not apply to the debate. They tried to poison the well with soy right off the bat. Also, isn't the discussion of "ethics of veganism" a meta-ethical discussion? And you can't talk about meta-ethics in a meta-ethical discussion? If it had the scope that they said they wanted (which is what should have been referenced instead of "frame") it would have even led to the discussion of the discussion itself. What were they even going to be debating? They wanted Jay and Tristan to say their piece like they were in a sharing circle and then have full freedom to do the actual debating. I guess they thought they were being clever in just putting their attempt to treat Jay and Tristan like stand ins and living straw men bare but, it didn't work. On a final note, I don't think they know what a straw man is.
+Chris McCombs If you assume zeno's problem to be purely mathematical then it has been already solved, proving that geometric series are absolutely convergent can be done within standard mathematical framework.
If you assume it is metaphysical question then today's math will not suffice (and might never, incompleteness and all that jazz).
Measurements are more fundamental problem of limited accuracy, which would indeed imply that our empirical understanding is limited.
But Math is a priori oriented and doesnt need to worry itself with empirical problems.
Euclidean and non Euclidean geometry are not contradictory, because it all lies on uncertainty of fifth axiom, falling apart upon closure of the problem.
Do you follow any philosophical school or is this whole discussion a training in Hume's guillotine with dash of fallibilism?
“317 is a prime, not because we think so, or because our minds are shaped in one way rather than another, but because it is, because mathematical reality is built that way.” ~ Poorten
+Bass Cannon "Infinite limit" haha that's some comedy gold there if I've ever heard it.
Sorry, but no one has solved Zeno's paradox, they merely appeal to their results instead of addressing the actual problem which again is an affirming the consequent fallacy.
All measurements taken of anything have infinite decimals behind them proving that all measurements are merely approximations...the problem of the infinite proves that mathematics is all just pragmatic function oriented, and unfortunately, function can do nothing to prove what is true. Euclidean and non Euclidean geometry, two contradictory schools, have equal function.
+Chris McCombs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1/2_%2B_1/4_%2B_1/8_%2B_1/16_%2B_%E2%8B%AF
I know education varies by country but i was introduced to infinite limits in senior (?) high, its true that paradox existed for very long but even wolfram alpha can solve it now
Münchhausen trilemma would fit there better really.
Id be hurt about that "dumbfuck" thing, but now i can take solace in fact that you have never taken basic calculus
I laughed so hard when vegan no gains talked about his vasectomy because your baby cried at the same time during the video. I dont think its a coincidence rather i attribute it to god's humor. May god bless your child.
I was hoping you all would discuss the overall-ness that both sides end the life of either plants or animals to fulfill their need. Their hunger and sustenance. One destroys animals for use, one destroys plants for use.
That would of been a good topic to talk about.
I like how you are doing livestreams with vegans and doing discussions.
This ask yourself kid is mentally ill. Could you try to bring on some of the more acknowledged intellectuals of their movement like a bas le ciel or unnatural vegan to have a conversation?
This was painful to listen to and unfortunately pretty boring. I have criticisms of both sides but from the get go I didn't like how Gains and AskYourself tried to frame the debate how they wanted it. I get that they weren't interested in talking about where we get our ethics from but they could have at least agreed to let the other side talk about it for a little while instead of being completely against it. For crying out loud this is a debate on ethics. How is it not relevant to discuss how we get our ethics?
Lol the vegans and their conversational contingencies.....they do this all the time. They always have to set the ground rules according to how they think the conversation should go.
"There are so many bad ground moves open to them." - crazy blue hoodie guy. Lol what?!
Crazy blue hoodie guy clearly needs some psychological assessment.
The vegans got their assess handed to them! This was awesome!
Richard is a fuckin moron. Too bad his mother didn't abort him or stomp on him.
Holy fuck...these vegans are fucked! I always knew it but actually witnessing them get torn to pieces before my eyes was priceless! Loved it!
Tristan you are awesome! You killed it man! Hats off to you.
You and Jay killed it.
Crazy blue hoodie guy looked like he was about to cry before he cut out and seeing Dick, I mean Richard sweat and stall was fuckin awesome!
Ahahahaha you totally got to him....he was so triggered!
Arguing about arguing. This is too tough to watch with the first two people. It would be more entertaining if we could actually hear the topics of discussion. Vegan Gains and Tristan are a bit easier to watch.
It was funny you mocking the vegans but I wish you hadn't. I know ask yourself is very condescending but there are much more subtle ways to deal with this that makes him look stupid. I wanted to learn more from this and I think the mocking took away from it
"The Fact..." sums up the vegans' argument perfectly. They just kept repeating themselves mindlessly, going from rolling my eyes to being annoyed to actually laughing at what was being said. Props to Tristan and Jay for having to suffer through the insufferable. Congrats Tristan! You've made your point on why you nor anyone else should ever have to "debate" another vegan 😁
This should be on fucking pay per view. Make some money for carnivorous diet! lol It's ridiculous. I know it's shallow but you'd like to ring that AY dudes neck because he doesn't have ANY idea what the value is of the currency and value of the cultural diet. LEt's just reverse to veganism....Oh wait...WE ALWAYS NEEDED FAT SOLUBLE NUTRIENTS!! GTFOOH!
WTF WAS THIS??? i was going crazy just with the same thing over and over... i never head the word logic so many times in my live like in 1 and half hour! this is as no logic at all ASKyourself= must ask yourself if you have any logic in the way you thin...
!!! lool where are the real conversation about veganism and ethics???
The guy wearing the blue sweater reminds me of my little cousin when he says something stupid but tries to go around it gets all frustrated cranky nervous holding his necklace stuttering looking so confused poor kid about to cry cause he’s wrong lol
AskYourself may be the most irritating person on the planet. He talks alot but says little. He is pointless, ineffective, and irrelevant. He is needy of validation and respect. He is a control freak with low self esteem. He could end up being a serial killer.
So much nonsense here. Ethics has nothin' to do with eatin' food for good health. These young people have too much time on their hands livin' in small apartments in Canada. Everything consumes everything else to live. Has been this way since the dawn of the Earth with all animals and plants livin' off each other. This new vegan religion is a cult, yes sir, a cult. Throwin' 10 words around don't make you smart. Being practical and usin' God given common sense is. Good Lord, these two boys Richard and Isaac are lost souls. Give em time. Time is the best teacher of all. I love you Primal Edge. You keep speakin' the truth. Yes sir.
+C L - Producing meat causes humans to live healthy. Suffering is somethin' vegans wish to rain on humanity making humans unhealthy eatin' only plants. Overeatin' sugar, calories, and such along with no exercise cause heart disease and diabetes. Turnin' grain into meat is a great buy, yes sir since humans can't extract all the nutrients from plants the way cows can. Humans are at the top of the animal food chain. Farm animals are not equal. Pigs would eat you if they could and feel no remorse. Vegan's don't live healthy lives. Most are weak, thin, need food shipped in, blenders and such. It's a terrible depressin' life. You got this all wrong and sound brain washed. Some day, you will figure it out. Until then you are lost.
Veganism is just about understanding that producing meat causes suffering. The animals are slaughtered, cholesterol and other things from meat cause heart disease and diabetes, and to top it all off it's a waste of water grains to make an unsustainable amount of meat. You don't need to give animals the rights as humans like voting or sitting at the dinner table, just acknowledge that they feel pain, loneliness, etc and they want to live. "We can live healthy without eating meat; why wouldn't we?" is all veganism asks.
fun Talk, I was impressed with Jay's demeanor for most of the debate. I felt that he didn't need to use Foul language to demean the "Vegan" because of Jay's logical and practical answer to why he was not going to accept the "vegan" presupposition and the let's assume this and that questions. the vegan tried to trap you guys using a "false dilemma fallacy", You guys were smart and caught it, I think the vegan asked the same question 10 times or more, you can't say they didn't try!
sye ten bruggencate is a presuppositionalist who has done many debates with atheists that are entertaining to say the least. If you enjoyed this discussion then you will like these.
The Refining Reason Debate: Matt Dillahunty VS Sye Ten Bruggencate
Sye Ten Bruggencate VS Paul Baird: Round 1 of 3 Presupposition Debate
sye is a Calvinist, so me Not being a Calvinist I don't agree with Everything Sye says.
Evolution = Veganism
100 reasons why evolution is so stupid
the dangers of evolution - Kent Hovind
Vegans have this need to debate all the time. It's pointless to argue with people who will not be vegan 10 years from now. Slowly the diet makes them ill over time and eventually they start eating animals products again. Most vegans are young and dumb who will fall for most anything believing they have all the answers. Funny how time and experience humble arrogant know it alls.
The boy in the blue hoodie derails the whole convo for how long? Cripes! Narcissistic personality disorder gone wild. Opens with a meaningless self centered mantrum. Urgh. I dont agree withh all of what anyone says on these forums. But I know who would be most pleasant to hang out with and discuss life, the unverse and everything.
I can't finish watching this everyone's using lots of big words which I do follow but it really doesn't have to be so complicated I've seen debates before and they always start with defining what you're talking about I don't understand why they didn't want to start with that you basically just try to start with what are "ethics" meaning what is the definition of ethics just like if we were going to debate on freedom we were first have to Define what freedom is.
p != !p depends on what P is and tool of its measurement. What if P is an adjective like "bright/good/bad/awesome" the statement depends on the context of its use. An LED light may be bright at night but faintly visible at daytime. In both cases, the LED was switched on but the qualifier P can change. The "Blue Vegan" is using stupid boolean logic to complex human ethical constructs.
😃😃🙏🏻🙏🏻 Haha.... Going straight for the ABC of phylosophy. Fighting over 'by which rules will we debate'.... Haha Jay:"i will not allow you to frame the debate, that is called poisoning the well"... Right: Rhetorical questions never want an answer, therefor they did not really want a debate to begin with.
Wow its like looking into the mind of a narcissist you cant argue with them or reason. These are the type of people who abuse there partners, cats, dogs, and think there beter and smarter than anyone else, there world view is so twisted they are often condescending and will often make fun of others people my wife was in a abusive relationship for 16 years this man beat her and she suffers with ptsd because of him amung other heath issues and she was saying to me Richard vegan gains is exactly like her ex same twisted world views and with out any soul i know you didnt want it to turn out this way you have stated that in past videos internet bum fights but you got to say what we are all thinking and you can stand on your two feet!!!! His burping and coughing is indicative of his age and maturity a little boy who never grew up who is crying out this boy or boys not men at all to revert to rape makes me sick. Thanks for the video stream and keep up your work family counts and kids are our future not this degenerate fake world view he does not represent humanity at all
Well that went about as well as expected. The cherry on top of every VG "debate" is his threat of physical violence. "How much do you bench?" and "Let's have an MMA fight." Classic VG. He's painted himself into a corner with this character he plays on his vids. His vegan tough guy shtick is definitely going to get him into more trouble as he ups his rhetoric for views, the most likely outcome being someone seriously injuring him. He's already had his place raided for suspected weapons violation charges. The guy is unhinged, and his antisocial behavior is continuously bolstered by those in his viewing circle, so it can only lead to suffering in the long run. I honestly feel a bit sorry for the guy.
+mrunconventional No doubt! He picks and chooses who he threatens though. The person is either much smaller than him, or so far away that there is no chance that it will ever really happen. Guarantee he won't take up a BJJ student in his home town that challenges him to a match. With his weak/bad knees VG would be taken to the ground and crippled in 2 seconds.
+unlockthepower I cite the rabid dog defense. I feel sorry that a dog has contracted rabies, but that doesn't mean I won't protect myself against it if it threatens me or my family. The guy is sick in the head and suffers from STS, Soy Toxicity Syndrome. :)
To summarize 2hours and 38 minutes. Yes it is,No it's Not your claiming my claim to be Yes it Is no it's not. Also Tristan please quit picking on me you big meat eatting bully or I will Mute you =*( haha
Conclusion: 🥩 ribeye steaks cooked in butter, coated in salt WINS! LOL! Why do they want to spend their time on stupid shit? Talk about real stuff. Like how veganism is doing more harm than raising animals to eat. And why did VG resort to violence? What is he 10? Poor Jay. I could feel his aggravation. Thanks, Tristan for taking the time. XO
IMAGINE A WORLD where Isaac actually let Tristan get out his first argument for the debate. What a wonderful world.
Tristan “Let me explain why my metaethics are important to my position and then tell you my position.”
Isaac “No, no, you can’t use metaethics until you justify needing to use metaethics.”
Tristan “I was literally just doing that.”
Isaac “I have a metaethic about using metaethics in ethics, and it says you can’t do that.”
+Red Pill Renaissance Feel free to read my last comment about circumcision and how it has not changed. Verses of the Bible are ofteb taken out of context due to people reading the bible back to front, instead of front to back. I don't know how well versed you are in the Bible, but let me know if I was unclear about something or if I mentioned something you're unfamiliar with. :)
+An Orthodox Philosophy i There's not a single verse in the entire Bible that speaks of new Israel. It says we are grafted into Israel. As in the one and only israel (not the current state of Israel, but Gods people Israel ). You see, Israel was divided into two nations. the northern house (The House of Israel) and the southern house (The house of Judah). The southern house was divorced from God for breaking the covenant and refusing to repent. However, He promised to bring their descendants back into covenant with Him. When Jesus died on the cross He made it possible for the dispersion to come back into covenant with Him. Remember Jesus said "I have come only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." So, it was never about blood line. God set a part a nation to be Holy to be light to the nations around them. So that they would ser Israel being blessed and fear and obey God too. God never prohibited anyone from being a part of Is real (anyone remeber the story lf Ruth?). In Leviticus it says over and over "there shall be one law for the native born, and for the foreigner who resides among you." They are also told not to resist a foreigner if they decided to follow the God of Israel. The people in the Old Testament were saved or condemned based on theit faith (or lack there of) and faith alone. Following the law never justified them before God they did out of a sincere love and desire to please Him. Its the same thing with Christians today (or it should be). Jesus said "if you love you will me keep my commandments " this doesn't mean one should try to prove their love through the keeping of the commandments. It means from the bottom of one's heart they will desire to do all that they can to do those commandments just as a spouse would do all that they can to please their husband or wife. In short, The Law hasnt changed. God's standard of reighteousness hasn't changed, and what he expects of His people hasnt changed. Christianity started off as a Jewish movement so to speak. Jesus is Jewish the apostles were all from one of the twelve tribes. When Catholicism was birthed it essentially took that movement and injected it with pagan culture and sperated it from its roots in order to accommodate new converts who were from pagan backgrounds (that's where we get Christmas, Easter, and Sunday worship etc). If you follow Jesus you are Israel. If you are Israel you ought to keep the commandments that the Father gave us. The apostle Peter says that the apostle Paul is hard to understand in all his letters. And people will twist his words to their own lawlessness and destruction. And they do. Long story short, yes God's people should be circumcised. But circumcision of the heart is the first step. Hope this helps.
I ran over to VG channel to see the comments and it’s baffling how apparent the cognitive dissonance is. Everyone claiming superiority because they have no basis for morality other than the propaganda they are spoon fed by each other and the “elite” who say life and themselves are meaningless and the chickens deserve more respect. Self sacrificing zombies moaning from depression caused by voluntary starvation in the form of a superiority complex “killing for food is wrong” but cannot fathom the idea that their life is worth more. It’s blasphemous.
+ArtsyPepe God commands us to eat non hybridized fruits (since fruits were not hybrids back then) and seed bearing plants as written in Genesis and Jesus quoted by John in John 10:10 says that thieves are people who come to kill and to destroy, so most carnists have a very unbiblical way of reasoning and are also punished for that in Numbers 11:33 "God struck them with a great plague while the meat was still stuck between their teeth". Concrete evidence for that can be found from the bodybuilders who have colonic infestation (meatworms) from eating either raw or undercooked meat due to their blind gluttony.
Kaity Lumps have you ever tried to go to a dietitian or naturopath? Check if you have any gut issues? Or you just assumed yourself its plant based diet and just started to eat animals again? I just can't believe you can have problems with eating fruits and vegetables without any existing issues in your body.
Micky Dee we aren’t going to see eye to eye. It doesn’t matter what I say, you will never see justification for eating meat unless you yourself possibly suffer from your diet, which even then you may continue to sacrifice yourself to save other animals as many vegans do. I will never go back to a diet that made me ill. Chalk one up for yourself, your diet and morality is superior to mine
*bows at your feet*
congratulations. I wish you well, and thank you for taking the time to have a conversation with me.
WOW! you had a lot of guts trying to debate Vegan Gains. The boy is pretty brainwashed. I ignored his channel years ago, due to how crazy he began to sound like. Several Youtube members, who happened to have autism, have pointed out to VG that he could have autism...it was interesting to see them reply, because who better to know if a person has autism? than a person who has it, right? Anyways, I couldn't take watching the video. I could barely take watching your debate with "footsoldier," whatever their nick is. LOL! Anyways, man..I do not know how you are able to take it? debating these vegans... I ignore them and keto on. :)
I'm telling ya it's not about Mr Issac
Asparagus's diet.....he has CTE from getting hit in the head from dodgeballs in middle school. All he needs to have his dad or his second mom buy him a hamburger (no vegan hot dogs!)and take him to a whorehouse(transgender of course)before it's too late. If not I propose plugging him into the matrix and iv feed him pure juice. Kid has a great brain, but a needs a hard restart.
Tristan, you were right........ it is amazing @jukejointjimmy Well worth the price of admission.
Jesus, I can almost see the estrogen dripping out of these soy boy's pores. I can't even make it all the way through this bullshit. It's like listening to a record skipping. Like all of their debates. Same shit, different day.
PEH, thanks for showing the world how epic the brainwashing really is. Hopefully it will shake more people out of their vegan trance. Another flood of ex-vegan videos in 3...2...1... :D
Why do vegans always debate like adolescents who believe that they are right, that they are infallible and that no one else is smart enough to understand them. They want to define meat eating as unethical, then they want to proceed to debate whether meat eating is unethical. ROFLMAO!
+12brichards Actually any vegan who values sentience does not consider animals equal to humans. They just acknowledge animals have a right to life. As for the abortion thing a fetus is only sentient after around 22 weeks of development, so most vegans would only care after the 22 week mark.
+TwrexFTW My two responses there are A) I doubt "most" vegans would even switch at that point. From what I have seen they ignore the hypocrisy even then. B) Sentient is just a buzz word Vegans like to throw around. Them freaking out over killing animals but ignoring killing an unborn child even if it's a month along is absurd. IMO most vegans like to pretend that the life of an animal is equal to the life of a human but they don't really believe that in practice.
Why celebrate LGBT Pride? The history of oppression for LGBT persons has centered around notions of appropriateness/normality and invisibility. LGBT persons have often lost their families, their friends, their employment and their lives because others have deemed the way they love to be inappropriate or abnormal. Our society has a strong sense of gendered normality: Men do x and women do Y. Indeed, who we are allowed to love has historically been linked to that which is deemed appropriate for our gender. When an individual chooses to live with integrity, as an authenticate person, despite the societal dangers of doing so, they exemplify Pride; that is worthy of celebration. The freedom possessed by todays lgbt students was made possible by the courage and strength of individuals who refused to feel shame for who they were and Who lived authentically and openly, winning straight allies along the way. Instead of lamenting the paucity of role models living authentically when we, as educators, were in school, perhaps we are called to be the role model we wished we had had! Now, and every day, is the time for Pride!
Professor of LGBTQ Studies.
May 22nd is Education Support Professionals Day!!
As educators, we know the crucial role played by the thousands of paraprofessionals, office workers, bus drivers, custodians and maintenance staff in our schools and/or Community Colleges. In fact, it would be difficult to imagine a school going for one day without ESPs.
When we talk about strengthening our schools, we need to strengthen everyone who works within them. Along with recruiting and retaining quality teachers, we must recruit and retain quality education support professionals. To do that, it certainly means providing decent wages and benefits to the people who spend their days making sure our students are safe, well fed and learning.